Automatically share download-dirs

Archived discussion about features (predating the use of Bugzilla as a bug and feature tracker)

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YaRi
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Automatically share download-dirs

Post by YaRi » 2004-04-10 00:20

Currently, you can download files to any directory, even to directories which are not being shared to others. Isn't this strange? So users of filesharing-software don't have to share what they have downloaded, huh?

So, as a suggestion, why not change the behaviour so that every download-directory is shared automatically to others?
This would help to find alternative sources and keep files shared and not hidden behind users.
Since there are no such things like private or hidden files in DC-community, why is hiding downloaded files like this still possible?

Gasman1015
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Post by Gasman1015 » 2004-04-10 02:58

Not a good idea.
You should have time to verify the files you have downloaded are what
they pertain to be, before sharing them, regardless of hashes.
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

YaRi
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Post by YaRi » 2004-04-11 01:37

Not a good argument. Most files are valid, so arguments based on worst/rarest case scenario isn't very convincing. They're already shared by others, so damage is already done. What's the difference where you delete fake-files from, if it's a shared dir or not.
Which reminds me, there should be a delete-possibility also in "Finished Downloads" -window.

I still believe it'll be good for the community that every download-dir should be shared, by default.

More arguments?

Todi
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Post by Todi » 2004-04-11 04:08

Horrible idea.

My download directory is very, very, VERY unorganized. On the other hand, my actual share is pretty organized. I believe this is pretty common for DC users, compared to say, Kazaa. I also believe that it's one of the things that make DC great, which is why sharing the download folder is a bad bad idea. We also don't want to follow kazaa and make fake and corrupt files spread faster, downloads should always be verified manually before being shared again, simple as that.

Daniel771
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Post by Daniel771 » 2004-04-11 08:56

I agree with Todi. I think it is very bad idea to share your download directory.

Usually when I download something, I'll move it very soon to some proper place. If people must share their download directory, we will see a lot more "File not available" messages in DC. Also not everything in my download directory is usefull. There are lots of miscellanous files which are not usefull to anyone. Also it is allmost impossible to find anything there.

YaRi
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Post by YaRi » 2004-04-11 09:05

I see the problem here. I always download files to proper dir directly, videos goes to videos and music goes under music dir. So, I don't personally have a unorganized download-dir. There's the difference.
But I hate to see that people who download and never share those files again and I end up being the only source for the file. That's what I'd like to change with this behaviour.
Oh, and comparing every new DC++ feature to Kazaa is getting old...

Section16
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Post by Section16 » 2004-04-11 14:38

I agree its a bad idea.
My dowload dir is a mess of unfinished, possibly corrupt/fake files.. not only from DC but other sources aswell. Sharing that would do more harm than good.
Also, maybe we don't want everyone on DC to see all the britney songs and animal sex vids we download... ;)

GargoyleMT
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Post by GargoyleMT » 2004-04-11 15:10

Partial file sharing is on the radar of some of us developer-types. It's got a bit more elegance than some schemes...

cyberal
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Post by cyberal » 2004-04-11 16:10

agree with Gasman and Todi... horrible idea!

first of all, my download dir contains incomplete releases.. and all sorts of other junk I'm not allowed to share in my hub!
Secondly, the whole idea of dc just sharing all dirs I download too is just plain stupid.
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GargoyleMT
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Post by GargoyleMT » 2004-04-11 16:33

Cyberal, it's not entirely stupid - in ed2k and gnutella1/2 networks, you can't have leeches as long as someone is downloading something - they're automatically sharing their partial, and helping the network out.

That isn't the case with DC++ and minshares, but if users want bittorrent like features, partial file sharing is something that accomplishes most of that.

cyberal
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Post by cyberal » 2004-04-12 02:54

DC is not bittorrent
DC is not kazaa
DC is not gnutella

thats why

DC is so much better than all of them
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Naga
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Post by Naga » 2004-04-12 04:59

A little leagal aspect... Atleast in some cases it's ilegal to share a file althou it's not ilegal to download it. And if DC++ automaticly shares my unfinished downloads then it could make me a criminal. So if this should be implemented it should atleast be optional.
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YaRi
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Post by YaRi » 2004-04-12 12:11

No, of course I don't want to promote sharing unfinished files when there is no partial file sharing implemented, that had to be solved first somehow so that incomplete files couldn't be shared.

@Naga, please. It's up to users what they download/share. You don't mean that downloading without sharing is fine,do you? It's called leeching and without this kind of feature, DC++ currently allows that.

Naga
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Post by Naga » 2004-04-12 12:28

No I don't mean that it's fine to download without giving something back. What I was objecting to was that (as far as I understand) DC++ would automatically share my unfinished downloads and thus not giving me control over what I share.

YaRi wrote:So, as a suggestion, why not change the behavior so that every download-directory is shared automatically to others?

YaRi wrote:@Naga, please. It's up to users what they download/share.
Doesn't these two statements contradict eachother?
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YaRi
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Post by YaRi » 2004-04-12 13:42

Naga wrote:Doesn't these two statements contradict eachother?

Well, if you put it like, yes they do but you've taken them apart from their context. Back to topic..
Suggestions to incomplete file problem:
1) DC++ could have an Incomplete directory for incomplete files in download and when they're complete, they are moved to Finished dir ( or any download-dir of your choosing)
2) DC++ adds a prefix INCOMPLETE_ to files in download and removes prefix when they are complete and excludes them from filelists

No incomplete files shared and problem solved?

As some may have noticed, method
1) is used in eMule
2) is used in WinMX

Both hashing and compression came from other p2p-software, why not adopt more useful features from them? :)

GargoyleMT
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Post by GargoyleMT » 2004-04-12 13:50

1) Is already implemented.
2) Is implemented after a fashion, with .antifrag files, though they're not omitted from file lists. (one , two requests for more)
Last edited by GargoyleMT on 2004-04-12 13:56, edited 1 time in total.

Guitarm
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Post by Guitarm » 2004-04-12 13:56

To me, this seems very reasonable. I agree with the logic behind the location/handling of the directories/downloads. If one don't want to share something, Well, just remove it from shareable dir.
"Nothing really happens fast. Everything happens at such a rate that by the time it happens, it all seems normal."

YaRi
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Post by YaRi » 2004-04-12 14:03

GargoyleMT wrote:1) Is already implemented.
2) Is implemented after a fashion, with .antifrag files, though they're not omitted from file lists. (one , two requests for more)

Well, as prequisities are now met, does this change anyone's opinion about anything, since it seems that sharing incomplete files was the most significant concern?

Bubbles
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Post by Bubbles » 2004-04-12 14:10

I don't like the idea.
Different hubs has different rules, for instance...
If I was to download a VOB file from one hub, it would get me kicked out of another where they are forbidden.

HaArD
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Post by HaArD » 2004-04-12 14:29

I don't like the idea of losing control of what I'm sharing.

Personally, I do this regularly to test the files before I file them in the proper shared directory. For very popular files I usually changed my default finished/unfinished folder before I initiate the download so that each file is shared as it completes.

I determined what directories to share. That's where I want to share from. Period. What if I decided to download a jpg file directly to my Desktop, you would have DC++ share my Desktop folder as a result? That's insane.

If I am downloading something to a directory outside of those that are shared, that's my business, maybe the hub has rules to deal with this and maybe it doesn't, either way it's not a problem for DC++ to solve.

HaArD

GargoyleMT
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Post by GargoyleMT » 2004-04-12 14:42

The suggestions to make incomplete files have a findable extension are more for operators who want to enforce the use of an incomplete directory, rather than the forced sharing of incoming folders.

I think the first is a good goal, and the second is better handled in other ways, like Partial File Sharing (PFS, to borrow Gnutella's term), or placeholder files (if your concern is "download whole directory" on a set of incomplete RAR files).

A number of discussion on this and related subjects are here in the forum and also on the tracker under this, this, and this request. I'm not sure it's easy to come up with a feature that makes everyone happy, or is best for the whole network.

ivulfusbar
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Post by ivulfusbar » 2004-04-12 14:52

(To end the discussion)

I don't want people to be aware about the sort of kinky pr0n i download late at night after a few unsober hours at clubs...

we-all-know-that-we-don't-want-to-know-this-unless-you-are-a-cdm-developer-ly'ers ,))
Everyone is supposed to download from the hubs, - I don´t know why, but I never do anymore.

Naga
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Post by Naga » 2004-04-12 15:09

Guitarm wrote:If one don't want to share something, Well, just remove it from shareable dir.
Well if the in progress downloads is shared this won't be possible.

And as others have said I want to decide what to share. To add a comment about the leagal aspect, I've seen users getting busted for files they didn't know they shared just because of a feature like this.

As far as I'm conserned partial file share is ok if
a: the user chooses to do so or
b: it's only done in the standard download dir (then the user can choose not to share by downloading to a non standard dir).
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Wisp
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Post by Wisp » 2004-04-13 06:08

In my case, I do share my downloads dir, but the dirname is "downloads" so everyone knows they are not validated.

When a new album or movie is out, everyone is downloading it from eachother at the same time, so when everybody is also sharing the files he just downloaded, the spreading goes a lot faster.. (I hate it when a new album is out and i have to wait days before i can find a free slot)

I think that there should be a waring build in, so that when you share your download dir, dc++ adds (DOWNLOAD DIR) after the dirname so it's clear that it's not validated...

Twink
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Post by Twink » 2004-04-13 06:09

Wisp wrote:In my case, I do share my downloads dir, but the dirname is "downloads" so everyone knows they are not validated.

When a new album or movie is out, everyone is downloading it from eachother, so when everybody is also sharing the files he downloaded, the spreading goes a lot faster..

I think that there should be a waring build in, so that when you share your download dir, dc++ adds (DOWNLOAD DIR) after the dirname so it's clear that it's not validated...


people dont always look at the directory a search result is in.

Wisp
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Post by Wisp » 2004-04-13 06:12

people dont always look at the directory a search result is in.


in that case it's their own fault when they download a bad file (maybe dc++ could add a small red/yellow !-sign in the future?)

and besides that, how big is the chance that you download a bad file on dc++?
Most people are not newbies, so fake files are rarely spread, I have found only 1 fake file in the two/three years that I use dc++

I think the advantage of getting files more quickly, is more important than the extremely small chance of getting a fake file, especially the 'just-out' files (new albums/movies)

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Post by Todi » 2004-04-13 06:57

Wisp wrote:and besides that, how big is the chance that you download a bad file on dc++?
Most people are not newbies, so fake files are rarely spread, I have found only 1 fake file in the two/three years that I use dc++

In the past i would have agreed, but it's becoming more and more common that fake files spread. Perhaps it's someone seeding these files for some reason, or just more newbies, but it's happening.

Twink
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Post by Twink » 2004-04-13 18:55

personally I think if this was to be implemented then unfinished files would have to show the full size of the file, but maybe like mentioned earlier an icon or something to show that it isn't actually finished, it then could be added as an alternate for a file, and if a missing part is requested then an error is sent back (or maybe a note saying which part is available) However I'm guessing multisource downloading might be a better idea to add first (Although I guess this could be added before it i just thought it made more sense the other way)

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Post by foxyshadis » 2004-04-15 21:33

I've found that some hubs I frequent will kick/ban you for sharing incomplete files, especially WINMX-style ones (__INCOMPLETE__953629o87oye8l....). Since my DC download folder is also my winmx, bittorrent, and kazaa folder, it's a complete mess and utterly unsuitable for searching. (Sometimes even by me.) I usually find that searching in others' download folders is equally distressing. If automated partial downloading is developed then I may change my mind.

If you keep yours nice and clean, go ahead and share it; if you're worried about leeches and fakers, that's the job of the ops who run the hub to weed out.

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