Segment Downloading

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ixon
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Segment Downloading

Post by ixon » 2003-06-16 02:42

Need to be able to download the same file in segments off different people...

Also raw commands dont show up on screen..

Charalambos
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Post by Charalambos » 2003-06-16 03:17

You mean download a file from multiple users at the same time?

Not possible in dc++.

This has already been discussed several times.

Search for segmented downloading or multi downoading or something.
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TheParanoidOne
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Re: Segment Downloading

Post by TheParanoidOne » 2003-06-16 04:45

ixon wrote:Also raw commands dont show up on screen..
What do you mean by this?
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ixon
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Post by ixon » 2003-06-16 05:06

of course its possible, the same way kazaa does it. Its already in PDC++...

Charalambos
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Post by Charalambos » 2003-06-16 05:53

ixon wrote:of course its possible, the same way kazaa does it. Its already in PDC++...
Ah yes, of course! Show me!
And wtf has kazaa got to do with dc++?
I wrote:Not possible in dc++.
In DC++ it is NOT possible, in some modified clients perhaps (as you say PDC++).

But please, enlighten me, perhaps i missed something.
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ixon
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Post by ixon » 2003-06-16 20:04

Search google for PDC++ and then download it, connect and you can download from multipule users that have the same file. I know for a fact because I have done it.

It may only work on PDC++ clients, but it still works. Nothing is impossible...

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Post by Gratch06 » 2003-06-16 20:22

ixon wrote:Also raw commands dont show up on screen..
I think he's looking for the raw commands in client-server/client-client interaction to appear somewhere on his screen. A modification of the source code can do this, though most people really wouldn't need to see it. For my debugging purposes (in solving a problem with client-client interaction), I used the program Ethereal (thanks GargoyleMT) that worked wonders to see what went in/out, though it did take a bit to get the hang of it.

-Gratch06

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Post by TheParanoidOne » 2003-06-17 02:44

ixon wrote:It may only work on PDC++ clients, but it still works. Nothing is impossible...
Charalambos never said it was impossible. He said it was "Not possible in DC++".
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ixon
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Post by ixon » 2003-06-17 18:13

how is it not possible in dc++?

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Post by Gratch06 » 2003-06-17 18:50

ixon wrote:how is it not possible in dc++?
sarf wrote:Search for segmented downloading or multi downoading or something.
Hashing might be another good search term. When you can hand us the proper (i.e. debugged, fully working, optimized, arne quality) code for hashing, it will most likely be in. It IS being worked on, it will NOT be done overnight. If you can code it, that'd be great. I sure don't have a clue on where to start, and will leave that to those who know what they're doing and wait PATIENTLY for the time when it's in and ready ;).

- Gratch06

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Post by TheParanoidOne » 2003-06-17 18:57

ixon wrote:how is it not possible in dc++?
Not possible. It can't be done. There's no option to do it. It isn't implemented. It's not in the code. I don't know how else to say that it can't be done in DC++.

I'm not saying that it will never be done in DC++ or that it is technically impossible. Just that as of this moment, the feature does not exist in DC++.
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ixon
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Post by ixon » 2003-06-19 08:14

TheParanoidOne wrote:
ixon wrote:how is it not possible in dc++?
Not possible. It can't be done. There's no option to do it. It isn't implemented. It's not in the code. I don't know how else to say that it can't be done in DC++.

I'm not saying that it will never be done in DC++ or that it is technically impossible. Just that as of this moment, the feature does not exist in DC++.
Well... no kidding... thats why I REQUESTED IT HERE! I know its not currently in DC, this is the REQUESTS FOR FEATURES FORUM ISNT IT? Jesuz.

Charalambos
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Post by Charalambos » 2003-06-19 08:37

Yes you are right, this is the feature discussion forum.

But as every forum, it already contains posts.
So everyone who wants to request a feature, should be able to search if that request is already there.
I wrote:This has already been discussed several times.

Search for segmented downloading or multi downoading or something.
So search for it and don't post existing topics.
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Post by TheParanoidOne » 2003-06-19 09:17

ixon wrote:Well... no kidding... thats why I REQUESTED IT HERE! I know its not currently in DC, this is the REQUESTS FOR FEATURES FORUM ISNT IT? Jesuz.
Nowhere did I ever say that you couldn't or shouldn't request it. You were asking a question and I answered it. There's no need to SHOUT.
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styler
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Post by styler » 2003-06-20 03:08

(it might be nice if you provide links to the other topics... since you guys already know they're there)

::styler:: :shock:

Charalambos
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Post by Charalambos » 2003-06-20 08:03

I wrote:This has already been discussed several times.

Search for segmented downloading or multi downoading or something.
There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is in having lots to do and not doing it.
-Mary Wilson Little

Charalambos
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Post by Charalambos » 2003-06-20 08:15

Addition to my post above:
styler wrote:since you guys already know they're there
Yes we know they are there, but we have to search them as well, as we don't have them in mind.
There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is in having lots to do and not doing it.
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Nazo
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Post by Nazo » 2003-06-22 13:11

hahaha, this was funny, thanks for the entertainment.

Anyway, as for why it's not currently possible, we need the hashing. They are working on that and as soon as it's implemented, things like multisource downloading will become possible and chances are there will not be any trouble finding someone who can write it and is willing to do so as we would all love to see that implemented. So, it's not currently possible in DC++ because the hash searching isn't implemented.

BTW, all the other clients that do multisource downloading are reported to be unreliable at best. This is almost certainly because of that fact that they don't have hashing.

ciantic
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Hey whats the problem?

Post by ciantic » 2003-06-23 06:33

If its in PDC++ why dont u guys just take a look at that source?

http://www.lowertech.net/pdcpp/index.php?doc=download

cyberal
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wake up ppl

Post by cyberal » 2003-06-23 08:34

come ooon,, PDC++ sucks and kazaa?? OMG!!! Don't get me started...
fact is that it's irrelevant if segment downloading is possible or not.. cause WE DON'T NEED IT!!

so, how can we maximize our download speed without segment downloading? I think you know the answer... Original RAR releases!

If you download original releases in rar archives you don't need segment downloading.. just queue up the rar's from 10 different users if you want. Problem solved!

Few other great things about Original RAR releases:
1. You always have an .sfv file to check that the data you downloaded is intact.
2. If a file is corrupt you only have to redownload 15 MB instead of 700 MB (movie).
3. We get a dc that looks more like leet ftp-sites with order and clean shares and not sucky sucky shares like kazaa!
4. All files have the same names everywhere, no trouble with resuming.
5. We don't have to put up with questions like "what codec to use with fastnfurious.avi".. the .nfo file says it all!
6. Harder to fake a big share with rar-files than 4.5 GB .iso/.img files
7. Maximize download when you queue up your release from multiple users!!! :D

GO RAR!
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jbyrd
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Post by jbyrd » 2003-06-23 11:55

I disagree. I personally do not like segmented .rar files.

1. There is much more of a chance that one will be corrupt when you're downloading 40 different files.

2. Many times the release is not an .iso or .bin. This is what I look for, but there is no way of telling what type of file is contained in the .rar.

3. That would wreak havoc with the *download to...* option. When you try to add sources, you would have 40+ files to choose from. Much to prone to error and therefore corruption.

4. Chances are you will find 39 of the 40 files you need, but without that one you're missing, you're screwed.

5.....
I could go on, but I won't. I'm not really trying to convince anyone that the segmented .rars aren't cool...just wanted to let my opinion be heard.

I'm all for the exact copy of the cd. :D

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Post by Twink » 2003-06-23 19:48

i like segmented rar files, however ur expecting people to use more hdd space to do this, I dont only have files on my computer to share them on dc++, I use them and they're used on my lan. How inconvenient would it be to unrar a movie everytime I wanted to see it?!.

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Post by cyberal » 2003-06-24 02:13

jbyrd:

1. What?? Where the hell did you get that from? The reason that ppl belive that rar's is damaged more easily is that the rar's won't open if it's corrupted, .avi and .iso will. You will still be able to play your avi, but with freeze frames and discoulration. Could be possible to burn the iso too, but maybe the game will crash on level 4..

2. There are rules that the release groupr must follow. If you download original releases from known groups you will ALWAYS get the same package!

3. Not true either. Mostly the folders are named the same, and you just click "download" on 5 folders and you have rar's with 5 sources. Or if the folders are named differently you just hightlight all rar's and do a "download to" to the correct folder... no problems at all..

4. Yes, it was like that before.. when noone understood all teh advantages of rar, but as more and more ppl share rar.. it will soon be the other way around..

5. I AM trying to convince ppl to share RAR, it's for the greater good of DC!


Twink:

Noone expects you to have all your movies in both rar & unpacked form. And no real RAR-users have it like that.
Why do you have to have all the movies unpacked? Let's be honest, how many times do you watch a movie? I'll say like 2 times, tops..
I have all my movies rared and when I wanna watch a movie, I unpack it to my temp.movie folder.... then I delete it... simple as that. You have to unpack it sometimes... why do it when you download the movie? Do it when you gonna watch in instead... takes about 2 minutes... max!

For those of you that download RAR..

1. Remember to ALWAYS CRC-check your rar's before you share them.. don't want any corrupt files shared..
2. CRC-Check app: HKsfv <-- the best!!
http://whyrar.omfg.se - Guide to RAR and DC behaviour!
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Post by jbyrd » 2003-06-24 07:40

cyberal wrote:You will still be able to play your avi, but with freeze frames and discoulration. Could be possible to burn the iso too, but maybe the game will crash on level 4..
I, personally, have never had this happen. When you try to install a game, it may not install correctly if it is corrupt, but chances are you won't "crash on level 4". You act like you're in for a big surprise or something....

I always have crc problems with these .rar sets. I dunno, maybe they don't like me.
cyberal wrote:There are rules that the release groupr must follow. If you download original releases from known groups you will ALWAYS get the same package!
And how do you know that you're getting the original release? Hell, how do you know if it is some sliced and diced .exe or the full .iso? I prefer the latter and not the former.
cyberal wrote:Not true either. Mostly the folders are named the same, and you just click "download" on 5 folders and you have rar's with 5 sources. Or if the folders are named differently you just hightlight all rar's and do a "download to" to the correct folder... no problems at all..
If you click download on 5 different folders, your folders will download seperately. Not the same as "download to...". If the folders are named differently, sure, "download to..." will work, but what do you do if they are not in a folder? "Download to..." gives you the option to add sources to all files of THE SAME SIZE. Segmented .rars are ALL THE SAME SIZE. So, when you're collecting all 45 .rar files for the movie "JACKASS", when you get to number 44, you'll have 43 other files show up in your "download to..." list. Anyway....
cyberal wrote:Yes, it was like that before.. when noone understood all teh advantages of rar, but as more and more ppl share rar.. it will soon be the other way around..
I haven't found that more and more people are sharing .rar. Maybe if you go to another p2p client you'll have better luck finding them (because overall download speeds are slower). But from my experience, dc++ users frown at .rar because there are better alternatives.

Search for, say, Medal of Honor (it's a game in case you're not familiar). Count how many .iso/.bin files show up and compare that with the numberl of .rar sets. Chances are, you'll probably count more .isos than all of the individual .rar files (where it takes at least 20 .rars to extract into the real thing)

This is why I don't like rar.
cyberal wrote:What?? Where the hell did you get that from?
LOL, I should start citing my sources like you did in your fine post. :D

p.s. There is no need to use foul language. :wink:

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Post by sarf » 2003-06-24 10:06

cyberal, the pros and cons of RAR have been discussed before, but I will try to give a few reasons why I do not want to share 'em :

RARs take up place, especially if I use the data contained in them. While it is true that I only watch a movie once or twice, I most often delete it afterwards or keep it in my share as a goodwill gesture to the people who might want to see. If I do keep it, however, I do not want to have to mess around with my partitions and make space somewhere (yes, yes, I know, but I constantly fill up my drives no matter how much space I have). I want to use the file NOW (hey, perhaps I'm a bit childish, but that's how I am).
Also, when we are talking about CD/DVD-images, I do NOT want to unpack RAR-files just to play the game (nor do I want to do a full install / NoCD crack just because RAR is so good). Lazy? Perhaps. But while I am lazy, I often get the stuff I want very quickly (through BitTorrent and on my ISP hub - 100 MBit) and thus I do not feel the need for RARs as acutely as I may have had I not had the connection I do (whew!).

Oh, and by the way, DC++ can do CRC checking with SFV files as well, and it will throw away any bad files. This is most convenient with RAR files since they are so small, but since I have seldom had large files go corrupt on me I do not feel the urge to convert to RAR-shares just yet.

Sarf
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cyberal
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Post by cyberal » 2003-06-24 11:15

jbyrd wrote:And how do you know that you're getting the original release?
You seem like a smart guy, you probably check isonews and nforce when you download games, and if you download games from dc you probably know quite well what groups that release stuff. Knowing what stuff is original releases is not an issue.
jbyrd wrote:Hell, how do you know if it is some sliced and diced .exe or the full .iso? I prefer the latter and not the former.
If you have doubts that the rar archives contain an iso nothing stops you from viewing the first rar you download to look inside..
If you click download on 5 different folders, your folders will download seperately.
No they will not, if you click download on 5 folders with the same name the files in the folders will be downloaded to the same folder, how can they not? If the files in those 5 folders are the same (like RARs) they will be added to your queue on the same entry with 5 different sources.. try it.. you'll see.
what do you do if they are not in a folder?
huh?
"Download to..." gives you the option to add sources to all files of THE SAME SIZE. Segmented .rars are ALL THE SAME SIZE. So, when you're collecting all 45 .rar files for the movie "JACKASS", when you get to number 44, you'll have 43 other files show up in your "download to..." list.
Why would you add the rar-files one by one? Just highlight them all and add them together... download to.. correct folder..

I haven't found that more and more people are sharing .rar.
I have, at least in the hubs I'm in.. one reg only hub.. and one original releases only hub (ofcourse there are much rar in there ;) )
Maybe if you go to another p2p client you'll have better luck finding them
nah, dc is the only p2p client with fairly smart users.. second best after ftp-sites I belive.

Search for, say, Medal of Honor (it's a game in case you're not familiar). Count how many .iso/.bin files show up and compare that with the numberl of .rar sets. Chances are, you'll probably count more .isos than all of the individual .rar files (where it takes at least 20 .rars to extract into the real thing)
This is just stupid, someone has to be first.. if everyone were to think like this nothing would happen anywhere... think of the first person that got himself a fax machine.. hm well.. he couldn't use it at all.. you can use your "fax machine".. hm... I'm lost.. you know what I mean..
p.s. There is no need to use foul language. :wink:
sorry
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cyberal
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Post by cyberal » 2003-06-24 11:33

Sarf:
sarf wrote:While it is true that I only watch a movie once or twice, I most often delete it afterwards or keep it in my share as a goodwill gesture to the people who might want to see. If I do keep it, however, I do not want to have to mess around with my partitions and make space somewhere (yes, yes, I know, but I constantly fill up my drives no matter how much space I have). I want to use the file NOW (hey, perhaps I'm a bit childish, but that's how I am).
Same here, I always keep the movies couple of weeks after I watched it, so ppl can download. To not have room for one 700 MB movie.. well.. come on sarf, what kind of argument is that? And you are correct about the childish thing.. if you have time to unpack the file when you have downloaded it.. you might aswell unpack it when you gonna watch it instead.. waiting 1-2 minutes still counts as NOW!
sarf wrote:Also, when we are talking about CD/DVD-images, I do NOT want to unpack RAR-files just to play the game (nor do I want to do a full install / NoCD crack just because RAR is so good).
Ofcourse not, noway I unpack an entire game whenever I want to play it.. play a game countless times. BUT, I never have more than 3 or 4 games that I play in a specific time frame. So there is no need to have all my games unpacked.. just the ones I play at the time..
sarf wrote:(through BitTorrent and on my ISP hub - 100 MBit) and thus I do not feel the need for RARs as acutely as I may have had I not had the connection I do (whew!).
100 Mbit huh, you should be silent then ;)
BitTorrent is good if you wanna get the latest tv-eps, shame that they don't release the rar-archives :(
sarf wrote:Oh, and by the way, DC++ can do CRC checking with SFV files as well, and it will throw away any bad files. This is most convenient with RAR files since they are so small
yes, great feature
sarf wrote:but since I have seldom had large files go corrupt on me I do not feel the urge to convert to RAR-shares just yet
corrupt files haven't happened to me very often either.. well.. I download mostly movies and there I had a few with bad quality.. lost frames etc.
I want rar mainly because it looks clean with original releases and it becomes soo easy to find what you want. These says everyone rename their files to their personal style and it sucks. Also (since I'm not on a 100 Mbit line) I want rar cause I can download them from multiple users at the same time.. maximizing by bandwidth :)
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Post by Croydon » 2003-06-24 11:42

jbyrd
I always have crc problems with these .rar sets. I dunno, maybe they don't like me.
We seem to be off topic but I think this may be helpful to those who use RAR.

I was having CRC errors constantly. Saw an article that said it may be caused by a bad stick of RAM. Downloaded http://www.memtest86.com/ (Freeware) and found that I *did* have a bad stick of ram. Replaced it and problems went to zero :!: Thought about starting a RAR pole, but it's not a DC++ feature :?
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Re: Hey whats the problem?

Post by GargoyleMT » 2003-06-24 13:19

ciantic wrote:If its in PDC++ why dont u guys just take a look at that source?

http://www.lowertech.net/pdcpp/index.php?doc=download
Because it's not stable? As much as Distiller's heart is in the right place by making it, it's not in a usable form now. He knows this. It's not ready for prime time.

If we were forced to implement this feature without hashing, I'd rather copy the DC-GUI method, which is a much more clever hack.

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Post by jbyrd » 2003-06-24 13:39

cyberal wrote:No they will not, if you click download on 5 folders with the same name the files in the folders will be downloaded to the same folder, how can they not? If the files in those 5 folders are the same (like RARs) they will be added to your queue on the same entry with 5 different sources.. try it.. you'll see.
I may be arguing a mute point, but this is one of the reasons why there are the alphanumerics at the end of incomplete downloads.... I'm tired of explaining this *moving on*.

cyberal wrote:huh?
You can't be serious. Do I need to type in slow motion? When you do a search for medal of honor and get 75 .isos/.bins, and you go past all of those and find your beloved .rars, you're saying that you are going to find one of them, and download it. What if you want to have more sources???? You will have to find another source and select "download to...". If you follow this, read my previous quote:

I said:
"Download to..." gives you the option to add sources to all files of THE SAME SIZE. Segmented .rars are ALL THE SAME SIZE. So, when you're collecting all 45 .rar files for the movie "JACKASS", when you get to number 44, you'll have 43 other files show up in your "download to..." list.
If that doesn't make sense... :shock: :shock: :shock:
cyberal wrote: You seem like a smart guy, you probably check isonews and nforce when you download games, and if you download games from dc you probably know quite well what groups that release stuff. Knowing what stuff is original releases is not an issue.
Sure, but am I going to go by the name on the .rar set? I don't think so.
cyberal wrote: This is just stupid, someone has to be first..
You can be, but I'll be the first with the working download (instead of trying to hunt down .rar number 45).

cyberal wrote:...think of the first person that got himself a fax machine.. hm well.. he couldn't use it at all.. you can use your "fax machine".. hm... I'm lost.. you know what I mean..
cyberal wrote:huh?



But, anyway, I am now tired of arguing with Dr. RAR. You win. 8)

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Post by ixon » 2003-06-24 23:03

How about you guys keep on topic... rar has nothing to do with segment downloading. I can get a 100mb file of kazaa in about 10 minutes with 10 segments going... then I come to dc and i have to download 100mb off some noob at 9kb/s... it dosnet matter if i search for alternitives or not, it ant gona go any faster. Segment downloading has to be done.

No more rar issues and scene related bs.

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Post by jbyrd » 2003-06-25 10:19

Yes, master. Sorry, master.

:roll:

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Post by sarf » 2003-06-25 11:43

All right, then ixon - I'm the first to agree that off-topic posts are not good.

Segmented downloading is not currently a priority since hashing has not been done yet.
Hashing - almost a prerequisite for segmented downloading, and certainly a prerequisite for efficient segmented downloading - may be coded by someone, but it will probably not be arne who makes the first version. If you want to help (but can't/won't code the feature yourself), go to the developer's hub or to a post which discusses hashing and suggest a good library that supports Tiger Tree Hashing (or another efficient and good hashing solution that fits the problem).

Good luck.

Sarf
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ciantic
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hmm yes..

Post by ciantic » 2003-06-29 11:23

As long as segmented downloads are planned to do i dont have anything to complain. Sure if there is better way, use that! But im eagerly waiting segmented downloads feature :)

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Post by distiller » 2003-07-28 21:26

Trying to learn the DC++ code and creating a new features does take a lot of time, especially if you're working full-time as well. Asking for features and not contributing is lame. =) pDC is making extremely slow progress and will get ready, but just not right now.

The whole rar-discussion is futile, there will always be those who do not want to keep their downloads in the .rar-files, you can't mount a rar:ed image in deamon tools, you can't watch the movies, you can't use the apps. It's a lot of hassle and while the releases from groups should be in this way for distributin it's just to messy to store it that way.

Hashing will bring great benefits, but there is a lot of work to be done on different areas of DC++ and therefore it takes a lot of time to implement it. Also these things are not used very often and as such every programmer wanting to contribute must learn new libraries and theories to help out.

What is needed is a guy who can work full time on hashing and then the other features will be a lot easier to implement.

How about paying a guy for a complete month? Wouldn't take much from many to create a decent salary... What about a "you want a feature then pay the one responsible for creating it". :!: Maybe absurd for the open-source community but surely efficent...

cyberal
Posts: 360
Joined: 2003-05-16 05:42

Post by cyberal » 2003-07-29 01:11

I wouldn't mind to contribute..
http://whyrar.omfg.se - Guide to RAR and DC behaviour!
http://bodstrom.omfg.se - Bodströmsamhället, Länksamling om hoten mot vår personliga integritet

gourmet
Posts: 51
Joined: 2003-07-27 07:58

Post by gourmet » 2003-08-05 16:06

Ooook....

I just wanna tell 2 ways how to implement segmented downloading.

1. For segmantaion protected files.

Work as GetRight works. It creates file with target size, openes 1-2-3-more sources (as I choose) and then starts write to different positions inside file. If I selected 2 segments - then 1st segment will be written from begining of file and 2nd segment will be written from 1/2 of file size. For 3 segments - from begining, from 1/3 and 2/3 of file size. If one segment had been filled faster than others, then it just stops. Viola.

2. For not segmentaion protected files.

Allocate larger buffer in memory, fill this buffer from 2 or more segments. Filling manner could be same as for non-segmented files but in memory. Then just flash this buffer at once. Viola.

I don't see any problems with protocol or other client side (say "server"). You just have to know and keep file pointer for each source. When you implement resuming - you use this value but calculate it from loaded portion of file. Here it must be calculated from loaded portion and size of common buffer divided to number of segments. Viola.

And dont' tell me it could not be implemented. Please dont' force my sneakers laugh. :-)

Twink
Posts: 436
Joined: 2003-03-31 23:31
Location: New Zealand

Post by Twink » 2003-08-07 02:14

gourmet wrote: And dont' tell me it could not be implemented. Please dont' force my sneakers laugh. :-)
yes its always easy saying that when ur not the one implementing it. Sure other clients have this functionality but the solutions so far aren't very elegant

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