Upload idea

[whydontushare]

I love dc++ i think its great, but it would be nice if one thing changed...why dont you make it so that you cannot cancel an upload, i.e dissconnect the user downloading from you.

personnaly i dont give a shit if someone is downloading from me because; 1) ive got the file already and i dont loose anything giving it to someone else, right? be nice for fcuks sake! and 2) for me to be using dc++ in the first place im downloading from others anyway! so wot right do i have to cancel those who want stuff from me espically when ive selected it to be shared, none as far as i can c, if u dont want to share it dont put it in the shares directory...I mean u get some people who just disconnect you all the time, ask them why they dont reply, cowards...what sort of a looser do you have to be to sit there all day monitoring your uploads, get a life, it doesnt hurt to share...also most of the hubs say slot blocking or dissconnects are against the rules anyway.

O.k so if people leach from you all the time, and it really bothers you tell an op...i dont know why people do this, whether they are just greedy, who knows? Im sure everyone would agree when we all had internet 56k modems, uploads were a little annoying cause they slowed your d/l down, so dissconnects were a little more justified...But with broadband, COME ON! broadband is quality i love it and uploads never slow my d/l's down...i have 512k adsl, peak d/l 60K upload 40k ish, so i hardly ever look at my uploads...

One problem which may arise from implementing this feature is that if people cant cancel ur upload they'll probably try to limit their upload bandwith, to 1k, depending on how large the penis is on their head...so upload bandwith limit should also be considered, i dont see a problem with removing it? if people change their upload slots, i.e make less available, then they will be dissconnect from the hub anyway, so that should put most people off..

I think this change would be welcomed by all users (except the few idiots who spoil things for everyone), it is fair for everyone and everyone benefits, which is the whole idea of a sharing programme like this...not being able to disconnect others would be a major benefit to an otherwise flawless program...

It could be argueed that you could tell an op everytime someone dissconnect you, but most people im sure dont like asking for someone to be banned all the time, its tedious and annoying.

One other idea, bittorrent works by bouncing users downloads of each other, i.e multiple sources for download rather than single user...was this ever considered for DC++, a feature found with WINMX...

Thanks for your time,

[Boxie]

You have a point about the disconnecting users thing... i rarely touch it myself...

and as for the mutli-source downloading.... read some other posts... there is a few about this topic... and even a few over in protocol alley...

[cologic]

First:

cowards...what sort of a looser do you have to be to sit there all day monitoring your uploads, get a life

depending on how large the penis is on their head

Those sorts of statements detract from any meaningful argument you may have to make. It's in your own interests to refrain from making them, and I know I, at least, take your post less seriously with them in mind.

Right then, on to the rest of the post.

so wot right do i have to cancel those who want stuff from me espically when ive selected it to be shared, none as far as i can c

I have every right to do so. Its not being explictly granted to me doesn't mean I don't have it. (No one ever told me I had a "right" to use a computer either, yet somehow I'm permitted to; odd.)

I mean u get some people who just disconnect you all the time, ask them why they dont reply, cowards...

Their connection could be bad as well; you're making potentially unwarranted assumptions here.

also most of the hubs say slot blocking or dissconnects are against the rules anyway.

Okay, so let hubs enforce their rules. Don't trust the client to do so when it acts against the self-interest of its user (it will then be modified to bypass whatever restriction you added).

O.k so if people leach from you all the time, and it really bothers you tell an op...i dont know why people do this, whether they are just greedy, who knows?

People are, in general, greedy, and act in their own self-interest. This is why they'll hack the client to avoid your poorly thought out suggestion even if it were to be implemented, and why hubs should enforce their own rules. (And don't complain simultaneously about the ops wanting a rule about people cutting off uploads, while also talking about how "tedious and annoying" it is to deal with; the ops have to live with whatever rules they made, and they were aware of this when they made them; they can change them if they so desire to reduce their workload...)

But with broadband, COME ON! broadband is quality i love it and uploads never slow my d/l's down...i have 512k adsl, peak d/l 60K upload 40k ish, so i hardly ever look at my uploads...

Lucky you; unfortunately, many people don't have such good quality broadband. Look at any of the upload limiting threads here to see people write about why their particular ISP's traffic management causes their uploads to drastically hurt their downloads.

You want the ability to cancel uploads removed, yet you talk about people potentially being "leaches [sic]"? Clearly this issue isn't so starkly defined in your mind, but more interestingly there seems to be a contradiction of thought here: why do you use a term with such a negative connotation if you really didn't mind them (after all, a leecher is just a downloader, from an individual client's point of view; hopefully they're uploading to other hub members, but you don't gain any immediate benefit from that)?

There are several scenarios where I might want to disconnect downloaders:
(1) I'm reorganizing my shares, but at any given time, the bulk of them won't be affected. However, there's one user downloading a file so that it can't be moved. I want to disconnect him and private message him telling him why, and that the file is still available, just at a slightly different location, in my share.
(2) I don't want to use the "automatically disconnect users who disconnect from the hub" because it causes me to go over my slot allocation (by automatically granting them slots if/when the return), but I've disconnected from a hub, I'm not getting anything from it, say because I was kicked or something [side note: *.vob files are not always horribly impractical to download, and if I'm above the minimum share by a factor of 20, it shouldn't matter either way; grrrr], and I don't wish to continue letting people from a hub to which I won't have access in the near future download from me, as I won't be able to download from any of them. Further, simply when I disconnect from a hub a somewhat similar situation occurs with leftover uploads I may not want.
(3) I've made a configuration change that will dramatically increase the download speed of a user (this can occur especially with passive downloaders, as my port settings matter then). As with case (1), I may want to disconnect them and let their clients reconnect. If their slot's in doubt, I'll grant them one. However, I want the flexibility to do this.
(4) I want to be able to kill a connection that's gone essentially dead for long enough, i.e. has been transferring at 0 bytes/second long enough so that it's just consuming a slot. (The autoincrease slots feature works poorly at the moment for me.)
(5) Someone asks me to cancel their download (from another computer). Yes, this has happened on multiple occasions.
(6) As far as I remember, even that oh-so-good, not-leeching NMDC client lets people do this. (Or is NMDC a poor standard after all?)
(7) I hope I've portrayed why I think it would be a change for the worse at this point. If you want more instances where upload cancelling is a valuable feature, I'll provide them.

[whydontushare]

suggestions about my language have been noted, although at the time they were made in jest, no offence was meant to anyone, but rather black humour, appealing to some not others. Thou the fact that you picked up on this leaves me wondering how language used, i.e. personal expression detracts from my argument. surely you should say that you found it offensive or unappealing. It was just a blind generalisation. But if you find my style offensive I shall refrain from such language as this is a public forum.

o.k. so onto the actual issue of uploads...you confused me about rights to use a computer? I was not talking about rights per se but was trying to say that it seems a little unfair for me to d/l from people without giving in return. remember I was talking about people who constantly disconnect you for no reason, not all users. so u do technically have the right to stop uploads but im saying this is unfair when abused, which was the whole reasoning behind my suggestion. Again so its clear the reasons you stated for valid disconnects are all valid, it was not aimed at those situations.

You say people disconnect because of bad connections etc.. of course there are exceptions to the rule , but again its aimed at unnecessary disconnects. we should try to solve these problems rather than be put off by them. For instance I get people who cancel me half way thru and when I try to reconnect it says no slots available if u message them saying you’ll tell the hub owner they usually open the slot back up, I think its called slot blocking. These kinds of experiences using dc++ have formed my views, and I think overall it would be a lot better if you weren’t bothered with all that hassle. Im saying id rather just let it d/l and not worry about it, im sure this has happened to others.

About the hub slots, I was just saying that to back my idea up to counter what people would do if you removed the option to cancel uploads. most hubs have there own rules as you said and there is a minimum requirement to enter the hub, if you don’t meet it you get kicked. therefore if people try to cancel uploads by reducing upload slots then they will be disconnected from the hub anyway, so they wont do that. I am not discussing hub rules but rather dc++ ideas, I accept the rules when I enter the hub.

I was arguing that trusting the client to prevent you disconnecting users was beneficial, I did not talk about making changes to the hub rules, but rather dc++. the ops would have to do nothing, they are only there because of dc++ and are nothing without them, therefore whatever it does they have to do, which goes without saying. What im saying is they do what dc++ does, they are using the programme so are confined to what it does, that’s all.

You mentioned people will just hack the client, don’t they do this already, e.g. dc faker? and if you look at it from that point of view how can dc++ really evolve, what’s the point of doing anything if its just goanna get hacked? the point is you shudnt be scared of it but deal with it, trying to work out a solution so dc++ can get better. also most people aren’t hackers, which u assume urself it seems, therefore the large majority of people will benefit from a fairer dc++. there is a programme called bit torrent which doesn’t let u disconnect users, which is good.

You said I was making 'assumptions' yet you do so yourself making your statements seem contradictory. You said most people are 'greedy and will act in their own interest' really? I don’t think so, this maybe ur experience in life but its not mine… yeah I’ve had a lot of disconnects in dc++ but most users seem really friendly in the main chat window. Were u therefore making assumptions or generalising like myself?

secondly my 'poorly thought out suggestions' were just an idea, a suggestion to improve the program. I tried to explain it properly but I have little technical computer knowledge, therefore could not comment on programming etc, it was just a frame to build on. But you do seem personally offended with my language, and your general tone throughout is rather negative. I was therefore addressing a dc++ programmer as they are the ones who implement peoples feedback into the program. they are the clever ones and the ones who deal with hacks etc..

I did not say anything about hub owners and ops and a rule for disconnecting uploads. I was saying that if people keep disconnecting you u can tell the hub owner and they will be kicked, if the hub owners wants them to be. Again the rules are made by the ops and I accept them when I enter the hub.

I just get really annoyed when ur films almost done, and then u get disconnected, try to reconnect and the slots are no longer available, so u know there still online, who cancels at 90% when there still there, these people I shall describe politely as annoying. maybe im wrong, maybe there is a really obvious answer why this happens, not all the time but often enough, but I suspect this happens to others too..

you do have a point about broadband and I did not realise there was a quality, I thought it was just speed. I thought my peak rates were pretty poor, that’s only on a good day. I think the people who are 'lucky' are those with T3...From what I understand if u have a fast connection e.g., T1, T3 etc, uploads shouldn’t really bother you, as that’s a really fast connection and any reduction they experience due to uploads is surely still more bandwidth than what most people are getting. So I feel the upload issue should only really apply to those with slow or moderate connections like myself.

because of the way dc++ works the more hubs you have open to d/l from the more upload slots you have to open. now if uploads slow ur d/l a lot, and this does not happen to everyone, some are unaffected or experience slight reduction like myself, then you shouldn’t have so many hubs opened, and the faster your connection is the more hubs u can open. I think this is a fair compromise for everyone to deal with a difficult issue.

I was using the term leaches as a generalisation and meant no offence, your definition is true, and I personally am not bothered by them or have any bad vibes towards them, they can take what they like. It doesn’t matter what I call them it’s just a blind expression, that’s the way I talk. Try lightening up a bit, and be a bit light-hearted, you seem to take offence easily.

Your reasons for disconnecting are all valid, and I did think about this. Maybe something cud be worked into the program which recognises these problems, some kind of dual disconnect feature. this would be useful if u need to disconnect a specific user without exiting dc++.

You can disconnect the upload from the person d/l from you, but for the connection to be fully disconnected, they too must disconnect their d/l from you. So in effect you both willingly disconnect, by sending them a message. So u cancel upload + they cancel d/l = full disconnection.

Of course hacks may come into play but the vast majority of users will not have hacks and will be provided with a fairer program to use. Other than hacks the only way someone can disconnect you is to exit dc++ completely. There are exceptions to the rule, and some people may not be there, e.g. at night, but if u really have to disconnect them so badly you need to delete the file, move it etc.. if its so important just exit dc++ simple.

so I do stand by what ive said and feel a dual disconnect system would be really good and fairer too.

[volkris]

personnaly i dont give a shit if someone is downloading from me because; 1) ive got the file already and i dont loose anything giving it to someone else, right? be nice for fcuks sake! and

Nice language. I can see that you must be just overflowing with ideas DC++ should incorporate. I mean, crude language normally means inteligence, maturity, and experience, right?

In any case, anyone giving to someone else does lost potentially, and very often loses practically. Perhaps these losses are insignificant to you, but they're not to everybody.

so wot right do i have to cancel those who want stuff from me

Whose bandwidth would be utilized? Mine. Whose processor would take a hit? Mine. Whose bus would transfer the file? Mine. So what do you mean what right do I have?

broadband is quality i love it and uploads never slow my d/l's down...i have 512k adsl, peak d/l 60K upload 40k ish, so i hardly ever look at my uploads...

Not everyone has the same setup as you. In fact, most probably don't.

[volkris]

it seems a little unfair for me to d/l from people without giving in return.

No, it's fair. As long as everyone is playing by the same rules the game is fair. Your suggestions would put DC++ users at a disadvantage in the rules, though, leading to unfairness.

I think overall it would be a lot better if you weren’t bothered with all that hassle.

The harder you make it for people to share (that's what you're really doing by limiting the amount of control people have over their own shares), the less likely people are to share in the first place, and the worse off the system will be.

You mentioned people will just hack the client, don’t they do this already, e.g. dc faker?

You would be encouraging more people to move to hacked clients. Again, you're making it harder for people to use the official client. This only leads to trouble with dubious benefits.

and if you look at it from that point of view how can dc++ really evolve, what’s the point of doing anything if its just goanna get hacked?

Because DC should evolve in directions where people wouldn't be encouraged to use hacked clients. By basically doing the oposite of your suggestion, by making clients LESS controlling and constricting, it no longer matters whether a client is hacked or not. Effectively all clients will be hacked but none will be able to gain an unfair advantage. The key is in clarifying the roles of the different elements of the system and including trustworth encouragement for positive behavior.

there is a programme called bit torrent which doesn’t let u disconnect users, which is good.

Sure you can. The FAQ even specifically addresses the question of what happens if you prevent uploads.

You said most people are 'greedy and will act in their own interest' really? I don’t think so

Please don't ever go into business designing ATM machines.

In any case, people have the ability to be greedy; they have the seed in themselves, and the force of greed can be very strong. Rather than trusting people to fight back that force we should encourage it and then use it to our advantage.

Of course hacks may come into play but the vast majority of users will not have hacks and will be provided with a fairer program to use.

You know what dc++ is? A hack of the official NM client. The client gave users a crappy experience and so dc++ took off. Keep that in mind and realise that your suggestions would lead to a worse experience for users.