Tab order

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ElTratto
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Tab order

Post by ElTratto » 2006-08-29 13:31

Since I do most interaction with my computer through my keyboard, instead of using the mouse (as normal people). I have found some things missing in the current verion of DC++ I am running (0.691).

1. In the search View, it is impossible to reach the search result list. This is probably because the search result list just isn't in the tab list. My suggestion is that it should be placed (tab ordered) between the seach-input field, and the search button

2. In the Favorites View, one can not reach the New, Properties, ... , Connect buttons through tabbing.

3. In the Settings dialog, in Appearance->Windows, the topmost list is not tab-ordered

4. Maybe there is some reason to it, but I just can't see any, that when jumping between tabs with Ctrl+Tab, the order in which the tabs are getting active seem strange. However, it seem to always circulate through all tabs, so it is not a very big deal (well, actually I only think the search view thing is a big deal, the rest is just me being an ass :) )

TheParanoidOne
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Re: Tab order

Post by TheParanoidOne » 2006-08-29 13:50

ElTratto wrote:4. Maybe there is some reason to it, but I just can't see any, that when jumping between tabs with Ctrl+Tab, the order in which the tabs are getting active seem strange. However, it seem to always circulate through all tabs, so it is not a very big deal (well, actually I only think the search view thing is a big deal, the rest is just me being an ass :) )

It's stack based, just like the Windows Alt+Tab feature. ie. the tabs you were looking at last will be the tabs you see first.
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ElTratto
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Re: Tab order

Post by ElTratto » 2006-08-29 13:54

TheParanoidOne wrote:It's stack based, just like the Windows Alt+Tab feature. ie. the tabs you were looking at last will be the tabs you see first.


Embarrasing that I didn't figure that one out myself. Shame on me!

ullner
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Re: Tab order

Post by ullner » 2006-08-30 03:02

ElTratto wrote:In the Favorites View, one can not reach the New, Properties, ... , Connect buttons through tabbing.
You can however use Alt+<character>. Eg, New; Alt+N.

ElTratto
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Re: Tab order

Post by ElTratto » 2006-08-30 03:27

ullner wrote:You can however use Alt+<character>. Eg, New; Alt+N.


Yes I know. I still think you should be able to tab there though...

Trem
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Post by Trem » 2006-08-30 04:15

There was some problems fixing the tab code in the favorites window(can't remember the specifics) but i agree that it should be fixed.

In the mean time you can also use the menu buttonon the keyboard to get the context menu

GargoyleMT
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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-08-31 18:55

Nice suggestions. Have you considered putting them in bugzilla?

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-01 01:23

I probably will put it in bugzilla later today, just wanted some input before I did.

Do you think I should create 3 bugzilla entries (one for each point), or just one?

poy
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Re: Tab order

Post by poy » 2006-09-01 05:13

ElTratto wrote:3. In the Settings dialog, in Appearance->Windows, the topmost list is not tab-ordered

on my computer (with WinXP sp2), this list can be reached with the tab key, but when it has the focus, it just doesn't show it.
try this: press the tab key until the focus is given to the "help" button, then press the tab key one more time. now, press the down arrow :wink:

ElTratto
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Re: Tab order

Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-01 11:04

poy wrote:on my computer (with WinXP sp2), this list can be reached with the tab key, but when it has the focus, it just doesn't show it.
try this: press the tab key until the focus is given to the "help" button, then press the tab key one more time. now, press the down arrow :wink:


Now you've really got me confused here :)... I tried what u said and it worked perfectly... I played around with it a few time, opening and closing the settings menu, and ran into my problem a few times (where it was actually impossible to reach the topmost list with tab). I'm gonna play around a little to get more specific on which scenario actually brings out the bug, and which doesn't.

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-01 11:19

Short version: Now I have played around with it... I no longer think it is a bug

Long version:
I just got fooled by the fact that when tabbing from Help, it brings a kind of focus to the Ok button (so you can press enter to press the Ok button eventhough the list is in focus). Then when tabbing from the uppermostlist you may get a line in the middle list focused. (if you have previously selected any item on that list). So it looks like the focus is going: Help -> Ok -> Middle List, but it really is going Help-> Upp List -> Middle List (as it should).

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-01 11:32

When tabbing around a little more in the Settings menu I found that in Advanced->Experts Only, you tab vertically down to PID and then it jumps up to "Write buffer Size", ignoring "Auto refresh time". "Auto Refresh time" is instead tab-ordered after "Socket Write buffer". That can't be right...

Note: should you at all have the input-fields tab-ordered vertically? Personally I would like to have them left-right.



Sorry about my horrible explanations btw, most things you will have to test to understand :)

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-01 11:54

Well, it is friday night and what do you do when you don't have a life or
any friends? :) Look for more bugs ofcourse...

This time I'm gonna get more specific on the Search view, please correct me if you think I'm wrong/stupid, as shown above I have been wrong before.

Here are the windows controls I think has some problems:

Hubs list
Not tab ordered

"Searching for" checkbox
not tab-ordered

Search result list
not tab-ordered
Last edited by ElTratto on 2006-09-01 12:19, edited 2 times in total.

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-01 12:08

Well, now I'm looking at some other views. Here are my results:

Public hubs view
Nothing is tab-ordered at all(!!) totally broken

Download queue
Can't get to the little checkbox that makes the download list jump between list-view and tree-view. (That checkbox also has no label, so I haven't even noticed it before)

ADL Search
Same problem as the Favorites-view described in my first post to this thread

Search Spy
"Ignore TTH searches" checkbox not tab-ordered

Hub view
The checkbox that shows/hides the user list is not tab ordered (nor labeled)



btw, I have never figured out how to get down to the download-progress-screen at the bottom. Any ideas?

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-01 12:30

In the about box you tab upwards, it goes Ok -> Messagebox -> TTH, should be Ok -> TTH -> Messagebox

poy
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Post by poy » 2006-09-01 18:06

ElTratto wrote:When tabbing around a little more in the Settings menu I found that in Advanced->Experts Only, you tab vertically down to PID and then it jumps up to "Write buffer Size", ignoring "Auto refresh time". "Auto Refresh time" is instead tab-ordered after "Socket Write buffer". That can't be right...

ElTratto wrote:In the about box you tab upwards, it goes Ok -> Messagebox -> TTH, should be Ok -> TTH -> Messagebox

just to let you know, if anyone wants to correct these, that it's very easy to do; the tab orders depend on the order where controls are listed in DCPlusPlus.rc: one just have to "re-arrange" them the right way...

ElTratto wrote:Well, now I'm looking at some other views.

this time, it's more complicated, one has to manually handle the tab key on each of these views, the same way it's already done in SearchFrame.

ElTratto wrote:I just got fooled by the fact that when tabbing from Help, it brings a kind of focus to the Ok button (so you can press enter to press the Ok button eventhough the list is in focus). Then when tabbing from the uppermostlist you may get a line in the middle list focused. (if you have previously selected any item on that list). So it looks like the focus is going: Help -> Ok -> Middle List, but it really is going Help-> Upp List -> Middle List (as it should).

IMHO, it's more like Windows stuff, since the code seems correct to me.

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-02 02:26

poy wrote:IMHO, it's more like Windows stuff, since the code seems correct to me.


Yes, as I said in the "short version" it is not a bug. It is Windows "feature"

GargoyleMT
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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-09-02 09:10

ElTratto wrote:Do you think I should create 3 bugzilla entries (one for each point), or just one?

Create a separate bugzilla report for each unconnected issue. We normally close 'all in one' requests, since often at least one issue is a duplicate. Plus, having one bug defeats the point in putting them in a database (easily queried, marked as duplicates, dependants, etc.).

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-02 10:13

Oh, well I don't really know if tab-ordering in different views should be considered "unconnected". I was just about to add this to the bugzilla:

----------------------------------------------------
Here is a list of controls that are not tab ordered, sorted by view.

Search View
Hubs list, Search Result list and "Search for" checkbox

Favorites view
The buttons New, Properties, ... , Connect

Public hubs view
Nothing is tab-ordered at all

Download queue
The little checkbox that makes the download list jump between list-view and tree-view

ADL Search
The buttons New, Properties, ... , Help

Search Spy
"Ignore TTH searches" checkbox

Hub view
The checkbox that shows/hides the user list
----------------------------------------------------

Do you think I should split that up, and in that case how?

poy
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Post by poy » 2006-09-02 13:03

i think the problem is almost the same in all of these views, so i would put these in 1 request.

and in another request: the issues about the about dialog and the settings dialogs.

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-02 13:14

Exactly what I think too... Well two people agreeing is good enough for me, off to bugzilla they go!


poy
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Post by poy » 2006-09-03 07:24

and you forgot the one about the transfers that can't be accessed by the keyboard :wink: (it's a bit like the 1st request, but i'd add it as a 4th request; it seems to me this one is gonna be much harder to make).

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-03 11:14

I added that one a little later.

http://dcpp.net/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1045

Pasqualle
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Post by Pasqualle » 2006-09-08 11:36

i have some more errors for navigation with keyboard:

1. the treeview in settings window is always losing focus when changing selection with arrow keys

2. sometimes the buttons in favorite hubs window shows shortcuts with underline characters, but it is hidden like an easter egg

it is from my earlier StrongDC++ testing, but the problems exist in DC++ also

see details for point 2 here:
http://strongdc.berlios.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4003

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-08 11:42

Pasqualle wrote:1. the treeview in settings window is always losing focus when changing selection with arrow keys

Well the focus is actually never in the tree-view. So you can't use the arrows. Instead try Ctrl+Tab and Ctrl+Shift+Tab.

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-08 11:57

Pasqualle wrote:see details for point 2 here:
http://strongdc.berlios.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4003


Al least I need a better explanation of what you mean. But then I'm a bit slow :)

poy
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Post by poy » 2006-09-08 14:33

Pasqualle wrote:2. sometimes the buttons in favorite hubs window shows shortcuts with underline characters, but it is hidden like an easter egg

do you mean the underline appears only once you push the "Alt" button? if this is it, it's a Windows "feature", and there is a checkbox somewhere to disable this but i can't tell you where :lol:

Pasqualle
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Post by Pasqualle » 2006-09-08 15:52

ElTratto wrote:
Pasqualle wrote:1. the treeview in settings window is always losing focus when changing selection with arrow keys

Well the focus is actually never in the tree-view. So you can't use the arrows. Instead try Ctrl+Tab and Ctrl+Shift+Tab.


if you cheat, and you click on it with mouse, the focus will be on the treeview, so it actually can get focus, and you can use arrows (at least once)..

Ctrl+Tab and Ctrl+Shift+Tab to change selected item in treeview? it works.. but why these keys? is it some windows stanard? never heard of it..

Pasqualle
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Post by Pasqualle » 2006-09-08 15:56

poy wrote:
Pasqualle wrote:2. sometimes the buttons in favorite hubs window shows shortcuts with underline characters, but it is hidden like an easter egg

do you mean the underline appears only once you push the "Alt" button? if this is it, it's a Windows "feature", and there is a checkbox somewhere to disable this but i can't tell you where :lol:


no. i mean underline chars on the command buttons (new, properties, remove, move up, move down, connect)
open "favorite hubs" window with enter key, and you will see..

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-08 17:28

Pasqualle wrote:
ElTratto wrote:
Pasqualle wrote:1. the treeview in settings window is always losing focus when changing selection with arrow keys

Well the focus is actually never in the tree-view. So you can't use the arrows. Instead try Ctrl+Tab and Ctrl+Shift+Tab.


if you cheat, and you click on it with mouse, the focus will be on the treeview, so it actually can get focus, and you can use arrows (at least once)..

Ctrl+Tab and Ctrl+Shift+Tab to change selected item in treeview? it works.. but why these keys? is it some windows stanard? never heard of it..


I don't think it is a windows standard to use it in tree-views (e.g in the windows device manager you use arrows to navigate) . It is mainly used for tabs. You can try by running msconfig.exe and press Ctrl-Tab.

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-08 17:54

Pasqualle wrote:
poy wrote:
Pasqualle wrote:2. sometimes the buttons in favorite hubs window shows shortcuts with underline characters, but it is hidden like an easter egg

do you mean the underline appears only once you push the "Alt" button? if this is it, it's a Windows "feature", and there is a checkbox somewhere to disable this but i can't tell you where :lol:


no. i mean underline chars on the command buttons (new, properties, remove, move up, move down, connect)
open "favorite hubs" window with enter key, and you will see..


Now I have played around with it and I think I understand what you mean.

There are three ways to bring up the "Favorite Hubs"-view.
(all examples starts with the "Favorite Hubs"-view closed. Not just out of focus, CLOSED!

1. Use the mouse and click View->Favorite Hubs.
Result: The buttons do not have an underlined char in their label to indicate shortcut.

2. Press Crtl-F
Result: The buttons have an underlined char in their label to indicate shortcut.

3. Press Alt, then navigate the menus using the arrows. Press Enter on "Favorite Hubs"
Result: The buttons have an underlined char in their label to indicate shortcut.


Can anyone confirm?

Same thing seem to happen on ADL Search also btw.

poy
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Post by poy » 2006-09-09 17:47

yes, now i understand! i experience the exact same things; also, when you open the favorite hubs window from the menu, and click on the menu, no button are underlined.

so i would sum it up this way:
- when you open the favorite hubs window by clicking with your mouse (either on the toolbar or the menu), the new-remove-connect-etc buttons' 1st char are not underlined;
- when you open it by pressing a key (either Ctrl+F or Enter in the menu), they are underlined.

ElTratto
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Post by ElTratto » 2006-09-11 14:56

poy wrote:yes, now i understand! i experience the exact same things; also, when you open the favorite hubs window from the menu, and click on the menu, no button are underlined.

so i would sum it up this way:
- when you open the favorite hubs window by clicking with your mouse (either on the toolbar or the menu), the new-remove-connect-etc buttons' 1st char are not underlined;
- when you open it by pressing a key (either Ctrl+F or Enter in the menu), they are underlined.


Yes thats pretty much it. But remember that the Favorites-window has to be closed in the beginning, not just out of focus or minimized, for the bug to appear.

fwsGonzo
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Re: Tab order

Post by fwsGonzo » 2006-10-15 09:03

TheParanoidOne wrote:
ElTratto wrote:4. Maybe there is some reason to it, but I just can't see any, that when jumping between tabs with Ctrl+Tab, the order in which the tabs are getting active seem strange. However, it seem to always circulate through all tabs, so it is not a very big deal (well, actually I only think the search view thing is a big deal, the rest is just me being an ass :) )
It's stack based, just like the Windows Alt+Tab feature. ie. the tabs you were looking at last will be the tabs you see first.
that much is obvious, but im sure many including me would like a setting where its tab-ordered

TheParanoidOne
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Re: Tab order

Post by TheParanoidOne » 2006-10-15 10:28

fwsGonzo wrote:that much is obvious
It wasn't obvious to the original poster.
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Pothead
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Post by Pothead » 2006-10-15 19:11

poy wrote:do you mean the underline appears only once you push the "Alt" button? if this is it, it's a Windows "feature", and there is a checkbox somewhere to disable this but i can't tell you where :lol:
Right Click on your Desktop, Properties. Effects page. On XP, Appearance page, click effects.
With that option ticked (hide) the results are consistant of the "bug" mentioned. With it unticked, the underline char is always there. :)

Seems like when the child window is created, it takes the current window state, and makes it's child based on them settings.
E.g. when using keyboard navigation, the underlined chars are marked as active, and the child window inherits this behaviour, ignoring the stupid windows setting, which is defaulted to off.

So this brings to question, should they always be shown, ignoring the windows setting :) , or respect the windows setting and code it that they are shown or hid, depending on if the Atl key is in use. :cry:

poy
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Post by poy » 2006-10-16 13:53

Pothead wrote:So this brings to question, should they always be shown, ignoring the windows setting :) , or respect the windows setting and code it that they are shown or hid, depending on if the Atl key is in use. :cry:
i think your second solution is the best, but if this needs to read the registry and stuff, it may be too much for such a simple thing. i'd leave it the way it is, it's more like a Windows problem...

or i've thought of another solution: don't underline the specified chars (remove the '&') but, instead, show a tooltip when the mouse is over the button that says for instance "Alt+N".

Pasqualle
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Post by Pasqualle » 2006-10-16 16:52

poy wrote: show a tooltip when the mouse is over the button that says for instance "Alt+N".
please don't..

the buttons should always have uderline chars.
the display of buttons should not depend on menu settings..
see word->tools->options for reference.. all buttons have underline chars, always. except "ok" and "cancel" buttons. they don't have, because the "default button" behaviour is used: the "ok" can be activated anytime with "enter" key..


if we try to exactly match the windows standards, then there should not be any buttons in "favorites" window. it is not usual to have buttons on sheet type windows. toolbar buttons are the common controls for these windows..
there is a problem for example, when you resize the window, and you can't see all the buttons. (the many times mentioned problem with "search" button in "search" window..) but removing the buttons would be worse, because people got used to it.. so, breaking the rules is better sometimes..



the treeview in dc++ settings window is very strange, it is inherited from tab control somehow. at the first run it can be seen as tab for a second.. very strange. it explains the ctrl+tab navigation key..

Pothead
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Post by Pothead » 2006-10-16 19:27

I agree Pasqualle, i think it is a stupid option, which most people don't know about, and should be defaulted to show them, not hide them.

Anyway poy, it seems quite simple. :)
http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archi ... 14317.aspx
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/defau ... rators.asp

poy
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Post by poy » 2006-10-17 06:35

good link, it explains everything :)
i personnaly hate these underline chars, and i like it the way it is on a default XP install: you only see the chars when you press "Alt". so the best for me would be to respect the user settings...

there's also SPI_SETKEYBOARDCUES in http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/defau ... rsinfo.asp that might be useful ;)

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