Adding dreamland's list

Use this forum to flesh out your feature request before you enter it in <a href="http://dcpp.net/bugzilla/">Bugzilla</a>.

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hardcore
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Adding dreamland's list

Post by hardcore » 2006-04-29 16:06

would it be possible to have the dreamlands hublist in client as i have found hublist to be very unstable and feel it would benefit the dc comunity if another choice of list was there too

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Post by Anastasia » 2006-04-29 16:18

Good idea!!

Dreamland is one of the best public hublists around.

You reg your hub and you're on! Simple as that .. so, it should be that simple for every user to see it when looking at public hublists too.

Keep up the good work everyone

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Post by Major9 » 2006-04-29 16:26

I never understood why dreamland hublist is not default in dc++ after all dreamland got more reg hubs on it ! 2991 hubs are on dreamland against 1300 in hublist.org...

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Post by ivulfusbar » 2006-04-29 17:00

If you are gona campagin, do it better.

3 one-time-posters on a political issue.. This one can go to hall of fame. ;))
Everyone is supposed to download from the hubs, - I don´t know why, but I never do anymore.

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Post by Todi » 2006-04-29 17:05

It does look a bit silly to post it like this, feels very "fake-grassroots", even if you all happen to come from different IP's..

It's not like it's a bad idea, the more stable hublists the better, this just makes it look bad.

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Post by Major9 » 2006-04-29 17:06

is this all you can say about it ? the number of posts is all u look at or what? great job then

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Post by bastya_elvtars » 2006-04-29 17:11

after all dreamland got more reg hubs on it !


That's just one thing. It is possible that half of them are dead, isn't it?
Hey you, / Don't help them to bury the light... / Don't give in / Without a fight. (Pink Floyd)

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Post by Anastasia » 2006-04-29 17:12

That's just one thing. It is possible that half of them are dead, isn't it?
<<-- report them and it shall be looked in to and dealed with

Isn't it the idea that counts? that it was talked about in hubs, and 1 person took the first step to ask it here?

And others signed up, to back up the idea?

Not everyone was regged here before today, like we were on ynhub forum or any other ...

it's the idea that counts in my opinion!!
Last edited by Anastasia on 2006-04-29 17:13, edited 1 time in total.

hardcore
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Post by hardcore » 2006-04-29 17:13

After seeing alot of comments in op hubs and from users in hubs about reliability of the current hublist i thought it was about time the issue was posted here and to let the developers think about the idea and a possible solution to it along with suggestions from other people on the forum

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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-04-29 17:25

Major9 wrote:is this all you can say about it ?

Well, last I knew, the person who started Dreamland, Sandos, was pretty unhappy with it. Since so many people are competitive about their hubs and go to great lengths to be "better" than others, it makes sense to only add hublists that have some protection against abuse and gaming.

Then there is also the issue of load. If the owners of the Dreamland hub want to (and can) handle the load of being in DC++'s default configuration, they need to contact us directly.

Major9 wrote:the number of posts is all u look at or what?

Your accounts were also created sequentially within 20 minutes of each other. Even you can agree that is at least somewhat suspicious.

hardcore wrote:After seeing alot of comments in op hubs and from users in hubs about reliability of the current hublist

That would be more a function of its role as a target. I don't see why the Dreamland hublist would also not be attacked were it made one of the defaults.

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Post by Anastasia » 2006-04-29 17:40

we need to be regged to be able to reply ..

and again .. the idea was brought up, and some of us liked to back it up ..

that's all there is to it ..

Goodnight all ;)

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Post by Major9 » 2006-04-29 18:38

i'm sure dreamland ppl will conntact you as also they are reading this posts here.
we came to this forum as hubowners and ops - part of the dc community, which recommend dc++ as client every day to tousends of users, so the way we support you, we would like to be respect and supported back. we are getting many of our users from this hublists. dreamland hublist is biggest one anyways with or without dead hubs on it.
...it's also not that hard to add few other hublists as default, isn't it?

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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-04-29 18:44

Major9 wrote:we came to this forum as hubowners and ops - part of the dc community, which recommend dc++ as client every day to tousends of users, so the way we support you, we would like to be respect and supported back.

Everyone's features are considered equally, regardless of who they are. Nobody has more clout than anyone else.

Major9 wrote:dreamland hublist is biggest one anyways with or without dead hubs on it.

If it can't withstand the traffic, attacks, or prevent bogus hubs from working their way up to the top (all speculative questions that need to be answered), then including it isn't in anyone's best interests.

Major9 wrote:...it's also not that hard to add few other hublists as default, isn't it?

It's comparable in difficulty to a user adding the dreamland hublist from the sticky post we have mentioning available hubs.

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Post by Grönis » 2006-04-30 02:32

Hello

It´s me that run the dreamlands publiclist now and have done for some time. We have upgraded the list prity much for like a moth ago.

Before it did run om windows and did have a big problem whit fakehubs now it runs on linux SlackWare 10.2 whit the higets secaruty you can have. We have remade the hole bansystem so its realy easy to ban fakehubs now and do upgrades and we have done some chages on the list to. Its have been running realt smooth the last moth. We are working on some new stuf to.. but that is for later. But its goot that ppl fhink the list its good agin and running nice.

So if any one have any fhings they what to talk about just contact me.

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Post by Jonux » 2006-05-01 13:55

One would hope that the dev. of dc++ and Grönis that runs dreamlands public list now, have got together so its possible to show that dreamlands list realy went throu a lot of improvments latley as Grönis said in his post.
many would benifit from the option to choose between more lists in next dc++ client

keep up the good work all

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Post by TheParanoidOne » 2006-05-01 15:54

Jonux wrote:many would benifit from the option to choose between more lists in next dc++ client


You say this as if they don't already have the choice.
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Post by Jonux » 2006-05-01 16:10

as far as i know hublist.org is the only hublist added by default in dc++ client so yes,

not all users have the knowledge about all hublists out there

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Post by BSOD2600 » 2006-05-01 17:41

Jonux wrote:not all users have the knowledge about all hublists out there

Then they should read the help or FAQ on how to add others.

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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-05-01 18:06

Grönis wrote:So if any one have any fhings they what to talk about just contact me.

Could you take a look at the questions I asked, or the issues I raised, and try to respond to them? By luck or design, you avoided answering them.

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Post by bastya_elvtars » 2006-05-01 18:41

If users only know hublist.org then how could they tell what it i like compared to another? I smell incongruence.
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Post by SchlongerLonger » 2006-05-01 19:00

BSOD2600 wrote:
Jonux wrote:not all users have the knowledge about all hublists out there

Then they should read the help or FAQ on how to add others.


We both know that often people do not check the help or FAQ, what would surely would be better is either a fast switching option or in the event of a failure to download from one server to then attempt to download from a different one.

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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-05-01 19:19

SchlongerLonger wrote:what would surely would be better is either a fast switching option or in the event of a failure to download from one server to then attempt to download from a different one.

Near as I can tell, we already have both of those features. And they're documented in... the help file.

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Post by Grönis » 2006-05-02 02:56

GargoyleMT wrote:
Grönis wrote:So if any one have any fhings they what to talk about just contact me.

Could you take a look at the questions I asked, or the issues I raised, and try to respond to them? By luck or design, you avoided answering them.


ok here we go :)

you did ask if the list can handle all the trafic. I say i dont now we havent tried it to 100% yet but its have been up for 32 days now and running realy smooth and we have no problem whit it. We have no problem whit 3000 hubs. Its hard to try somfhing if we cant get 100% workload if you now what i mean.

About the fakhubs. We have a hole new bansystem thats working realy nice and we are aktive and lock after the list all the time so. sure there is going to be fakehubs but we are working on the list all the time.. and we ban the hubs as soon we seen them. When i did take over the list we have a big problem whit fakehubs.. like fist 30 hubs whas fake.. but now its not a problem any more whit the new bansystem.. and we are going to make the bansytem even better.

enyfhing more you whant to now just ask

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Post by TheParanoidOne » 2006-05-02 03:14

Grönis wrote:We have no problem whit 3000 hubs.

I don't think the number of hubs you have on your list is the major problem. It's the number of clients that will be hitting your site. I'm sure the hublist.org people could provide statistics on daily average and peak hits.
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Post by Grönis » 2006-05-02 03:26

TheParanoidOne wrote:
Grönis wrote:We have no problem whit 3000 hubs.

I don't think the number of hubs you have on your list is the major problem. It's the number of clients that will be hitting your site. I'm sure the hublist.org people could provide statistics on daily average and peak hits.



i now.. we have allot of hits to ewry day to. Remeber i have done this for a long time

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Post by footnmouth » 2006-05-02 04:45

the peaks over the last month have been over 2000 apache processes a second, and 14,000 open tcp connections at any one time.
you need a very nice fast hdd array to handle the IO else the whole things grinds to a halt.

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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-05-02 07:17

Grönis wrote:About the fakhubs. We have a hole new bansystem thats working realy nice and we are aktive and lock after the list all the time so. sure there is going to be fakehubs but we are working on the list all the time.. and we ban the hubs as soon we seen them.

Do you do any proactive banning, of hubs that have most of the operators in common with a hub you've banned? If a hub is part of a network and has faked, do you place any punitive bans on the rest of the network to stop the bad behavior? Have any of the hubs on your network faked (inadvertently or intentionally), and if so did you ban them? If they haven't faked, would you ban them if they did?

Hublist.org is pretty unpopular with a couple groups, but seems to be widely popular with the users. If you don't have the same policies that keep their list quality high and prevent people from gaming the system, adding your list to DC++ as a default would just be an end-run around them. And if some people can game your hub list, while they cannot game hublist.org... it wouldn't surprise me to see a thread such as this.

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Post by poy » 2006-05-02 11:34

Gronis, or whatever your nick(s) may be...

Your proposal could have been good but the way you make this is incredibly childish : taking different nicks and make people think these are users who like your hublist...

If it were only to me i would add a small thing "anti-dreamland" into DC++ to punish you.

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Post by VidFamne » 2006-05-02 13:52

taking different nicks and make people think these are users who like your hublist...
Ehum, how do you know that :shock:
I think it would be a splendid idea to have dreamland as an alternative
to hublist.org, if it could deliver the same service as hublist.org.

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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-05-02 20:02

poy wrote:Your proposal could have been good but the way you make this is incredibly childish : taking different nicks and make people think these are users who like your hublist...

Checking IPs was the first thing I did, when seeing a bunch of first time posters on the same hub. They're different ISPs. They could be proxies, but it could also be that someone started the thread and posted the topic on a hub, only to inspire two "me too" posts from other hub users.


The merits on whether or not to add Dreamland to DC++'s default hub lists are rather irrespective of who requested it and why.

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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-05-03 17:53

A point in dreamland's favor would be if it served XML file lists. I think the extra fields are pieces of information that are useful to users, and as such they should be accommodated.

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Post by Carraya » 2006-05-04 01:46

GargoyleMT wrote:A point in dreamland's favor would be if it served XML file lists. I think the extra fields are pieces of information that are useful to users, and as such they should be accommodated.


I agree with you on this one, using the old hublist format is well old...
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Post by imb » 2006-05-04 09:01

Why not just make the choice of which hublist the client downloads random from maybe 3 different lists. This would distribute the bandwidth equally and reduce the bandwidth on one main list. Maybe if hublist.org had their bandwidth reduced by 2 thirds they would be encouraged to display all hubs in the hublist. Furthermore the DDOS attackers wouldn't simply concentrate on the main list. Everyone is now happy in this ideal solution I have thought up.

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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-05-05 16:36

imb wrote:Furthermore the DDOS attackers wouldn't simply concentrate on the main list.

Hublist.org is a target right now because of their policies. Dreamland would (presumably) not be attacked since they're not banning hubs with Team Elite members as operators.

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Post by imb » 2006-05-05 18:21

You do despair when people waste their lives with such petty juvenile nonsense.

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Post by Carraya » 2006-05-06 04:33

imb wrote:You do despair when people waste their lives with such petty juvenile nonsense.


I don't I just laugh, it just proves how stupid some people are, and why it's a bad idea for parents to let their kids sit infront of the computer all day, only to realise that they have no life out in the real world... I think it's a good leason for all of us... Which reminds me, I have to get out into the sun... :)
By the way not all TE members are like that, but the guilt by association is a very common approach in life... Just think of all the associations you do every day based on skin colour, religion, hair colour and stuff like that...
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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-05-07 09:27

imb wrote:You do despair when people waste their lives with such petty juvenile nonsense.

Well, it depends on what you mean. You could be complaining about a couple things, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't.

Carraya wrote:By the way not all TE members are like that, but the guilt by association is a very common approach in life...

Personal responsibility. If you're part of a group and you don't agree with what it does, leave it. Or change it. But don't be surprised when people expect you to bear some responsibility for what the group has done. If, somehow, it's one lone black hat member that is making TE look bad when they want to look good, it's the group's responsibility to kick him out and try to do damage control.

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Post by Carraya » 2006-05-11 05:51

GargoyleMT wrote:Personal responsibility. If you're part of a group and you don't agree with what it does, leave it. Or change it. But don't be surprised when people expect you to bear some responsibility for what the group has done. If, somehow, it's one lone black hat member that is making TE look bad when they want to look good, it's the group's responsibility to kick him out and try to do damage control.


I'm not going to say you are wrong, or that you are right either, I'll give a little example from the real world, the group is called Black People (or whatever you want to call them) and the thing they have "done wrong" is that a higher percentage of black people are in jail compared to how big the group is of the total population in the US... Now if you were member of that group and you weren't in jail, wouldn't you consider it a pain in the ass always to be confronted about how bad your "group" is, even if you were trying to change it...
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Post by ullner » 2006-05-11 08:39

Carraya: There is a significant difference between 'TE' and your example. There is no way for a colored person to be anything else than colored, thus he or she have no choice but to be categorized as such. People part of TE or any other similar group have a choice.

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Post by Jonux » 2006-05-11 15:23

see the topic ? "Adding dreamland's list"
think ya slowly slippin away from it now...

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Post by GargoyleMT » 2006-05-11 17:30

Carraya wrote:I'm not going to say you are wrong, or that you are right either, I'll give a little example from the real world, the group is called Black People (or whatever you want to call them) and the thing they have "done wrong" is that a higher percentage of black people are in jail compared to how big the group is of the total population in the US... Now if you were member of that group and you weren't in jail, wouldn't you consider it a pain in the ass always to be confronted about how bad your "group" is, even if you were trying to change it...

That is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen.

Jonux wrote:see the topic ? "Adding dreamland's list"
think ya slowly slippin away from it now...

All the salient points have been made. If you want to guide the conversation, do so.

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Post by bastya_elvtars » 2006-05-11 18:44

GargoyleMT wrote:That is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen.


Sorry, but saying that hublist X is good because it is attack-proof (or less attack proof than Y - damnit, how can this be measured?) is not the wisest argument as well. Following this logic, hublist maintainers should filter by hubsoft, version, etc. etc. because hubs whose backend is <random> are less exploitable. On the other hand, the other arguments you posted are correct, but exploitability should not even be a partial measure for 'quality' within this context.
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Post by cologic » 2006-05-11 19:17

Carraya wrote:I'm not going to say you are wrong, or that you are right either, I'll give a little example from the real world, the group is called Black People (or whatever you want to call them) and the thing they have "done wrong" is that a higher percentage of black people are in jail compared to how big the group is of the total population in the US... Now if you were member of that group and you weren't in jail, wouldn't you consider it a pain in the ass always to be confronted about how bad your "group" is, even if you were trying to change it...

You present no argumentation, in lieu of insinuating via analogy that GargoyleMT's reasoning holds moral similarity to that of racists. What one is supposed to conclude from this putative rhetorical relationship you fail to specify, but one might assume given the somewhat negative manner in which the majority of Western society claims it views racism you intend a negative reading of Gargoyle's argument. Were your analogy sufficiently close, one might argue for interpreting Gargoyle's post such. However, because your analogy does not, meet such a criterion, its innuendo, and any effect on Gargoyle's suggestion, falls flat.

Your analogy fails in at least four important ways; Gargoyle has pointed out the volitional distinction, but another aspect of the purported rationale for discimination against black people remains heretofore unaddressed. Strawman claims and rather ludicrous equivocation of the consequences and the nature of such discrimination further undermine your parallels, and thus your flimsy pseudoargument. I'll describe only the last three here, per Gargoyle's already having pointed out the first.

Factually, you appear to have presented a strawman in that "the thing they have 'done wrong'" is that they're disproportionately jailed. Beyond basic semantic confusion, this evinces a certain creative truthiness in identifying what they've done wrong. The semantics first: that they are jailed would seem to be most proximately attributable to the state, something they didn't do at all, and therefore can't possibly have "done wrong". Even interpolating to a probable intended reading, one can't directly reason backwards to their having "done wrong" because they're disproportionately jailed; one can show their higher conviction rate for crimes likely to invoke state incarceration, but this, as those observing "driving while black" could point out, requires substantial elaboration and support before allowing a leap to black people having done something wrong. Perhaps due to its silliness, I don't recall having seen the claim you make about what black people have done wrong before. Maybe you can provide a citation of its being a reasonably widespread view, but lacking that, this strawman can contribute nothing, either to legitimate argumentation or to the ostensible analogy.

A rather crucial, non-parallel aspect of the analogy between Gargoyle's post and the status of black people in that not only, as he pointed out, don't black people usually choose to be black, but regardless of such a membership classification's mutability, whereas TE the group is targeted for their actions, historically black people have been primarily targeted for their identities, for being purportedly sub-human, for being ostensibly stupid, and the like. For example, the United States constitution originally didn't set only black people who had engaged in certain activities three fifths of a person, but all black people. Even were such identities fluid insofar as a black person could choose to become a non-black person or vice-versa, identity serving as a primary determinant of discrimination finds itself qualitatively different than a group, voluntary in membership or no, being targeted for their actions. Thus, an analogy depending on such an isomorphism finds itself fatally lacking.

Finally, the nature of the oppression and discrimination fundamentally differs between that faced by black people and that faced by TE members in that the former were and the latter, well, are not. Black people have often lacked basic civil rights they had no short-term way to achieve without moving, if they even had the freedom of movement to do that. TE members, per my understanding, act as operators on many Direct Connect hubs, and their oppression amounts to exclusion from a single (set of related) hublist(s). Of course, both of these are "a pain in the ass", and thus essentially equivalent. A certain Monty Python skit comes to mind. Another pseudo parallel down.

This leaves your analogy fairly empty, and you presented no other argument. What, then, was your point? Next time you hint that someone's the moral equivalent of a racist, try to, well, present an argument rather than condescending ("not saying you're right, not saying you're wrong, but out here in reality, you know, which I understand and you obviously don't, your argument is that of racists"), unsupported innuendo.

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Post by Carraya » 2006-05-12 02:05

Well as you all know I didn't try to say that Garg is a racist, he's one of the good guys, it's just annoying me a lot that TE is getting blamed for things they didn't do these days, just because they are the current bad guys, that was what I was trying to say... I know I know, I should explain better, but hell I only do this for fun... I don't sit around for hours trying to post on a forum... but maybe that's my loss... I'm just saying before you blame someone, it might be a good idea to find out who to blame, instead of just blaming some group, and well maybe a better example would have to be the current situation in denmark where a lot of danish people apparently considers all arabs to be terrorists, because a few of them actually blew up something... blaming people is just so damn depressing...
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Post by bastya_elvtars » 2006-05-12 02:13

Carraya wrote:the current situation in denmark where a lot of danish people apparently considers all arabs to be terrorists, because a few of them actually blew up something...


Well, erm, this is misinformation, I am not going to explain. To make it easy: rewrite Denmark to USA.
Hey you, / Don't help them to bury the light... / Don't give in / Without a fight. (Pink Floyd)

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Post by Carraya » 2006-05-12 13:31

bastya_elvtars wrote:
Carraya wrote:the current situation in denmark where a lot of danish people apparently considers all arabs to be terrorists, because a few of them actually blew up something...


Well, erm, this is misinformation, I am not going to explain. To make it easy: rewrite Denmark to USA.


Well since I'm danish, I took an example close to me, it might as well be the US, but I'll let everyone else judge their own backyard...
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Post by bastya_elvtars » 2006-05-12 15:18

Carraya wrote:
bastya_elvtars wrote:
Carraya wrote:the current situation in denmark where a lot of danish people apparently considers all arabs to be terrorists, because a few of them actually blew up something...


Well, erm, this is misinformation, I am not going to explain. To make it easy: rewrite Denmark to USA.


Well since I'm danish, I took an example close to me, it might as well be the US, but I'll let everyone else judge their own backyard...


Sorry, I thought it's the scandal due to those caricatures. Maybe I missed something. Sorry for offing. :oops:
Hey you, / Don't help them to bury the light... / Don't give in / Without a fight. (Pink Floyd)

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Post by Carraya » 2006-05-13 00:29

bastya_elvtars wrote:
Carraya wrote:
bastya_elvtars wrote:
Carraya wrote:the current situation in denmark where a lot of danish people apparently considers all arabs to be terrorists, because a few of them actually blew up something...


Well, erm, this is misinformation, I am not going to explain. To make it easy: rewrite Denmark to USA.


Well since I'm danish, I took an example close to me, it might as well be the US, but I'll let everyone else judge their own backyard...


Sorry, I thought it's the scandal due to those caricatures. Maybe I missed something. Sorry for offing. :oops:


No need to be sorry, I didn't take any offence, but yeah well don't say cartoons these days in denmark, or you'll get into an argument basicly no matter who you say it to :)
<random funny comment>

TheParanoidOne
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Post by TheParanoidOne » 2006-05-13 04:02

This has become very off topic, so I'm closing it.
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